May 24, 2018

Not Taking No For An Answer (PODCAST)

Angela Marvidis of Tribali Foods showed up at a Whole Foods Market buyer meeting with not much more than an idea on how to revolutionize the frozen food aisle and some samples in a ziplock bag…and it worked!

TRANSCRIPT:
Jennifer: Angela, thank you so much for being here today.

Angela: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Jennifer: You know, I mentioned a little bit about your company in the introduction, but I was hoping that you could tell us a little bit about … What got you into the food business? What was your inspiration? What’s a little bit about your story?

Angela: Certainly, I’ve been in the food service business my whole life. My dad, ironically, owns and operates hamburger fast food restaurants in Southern California. We’ve been in food service our whole lives, and we’re Greek, so cooking is a big part of our culture, and celebration, and bringing family together.

But at the age of thirteen, I became a vegetarian, and that was more of a quest for the best nutritious way of eating. What I knew at thirteen was obviously not what I know now. I wish I could rewind back. I was doing it wrong, but I was just determined not to consume red meat for various reasons at that time, but more moral, environmental, and health benefits. So fast forward 35 years later, and I think I just gave away my age, but I studied nutrition and became a holistic nutritionist, and really dove deep into the science of how well-sourced and humanely raised, and nutrient-dense grass fed and finished meat can have some profound impact on the way you feel, and the way you perform.

Being that I was an athlete all my life too, I thought maybe it’s time to incorporate a little beef back into my diet, but like I mentioned, I had those three issues I wanted to overcome. The environmental, the moral, and the nutrient density of the meat. I sourced some grass fed and finished beef from farmers, that I went to the farm and vetted and saw the animals, how they were raised, what they were fed. These were all important to me, and I never looked back. I tried meat four years ago and that was it.

Then I dove deep into producing what I had known all my life, which was burger patties. I bought a grinder on Amazon, and then would source all these great, wonderful meats from farmers, directly from the farms, and seafood as well. I would make four-ounce circular patties, just marinated with various herbs and spices and vegetables and purees. I didn’t want any junk in the patties, no binders or fillers or preservatives or additives. I have these at home, and before not too long, people would pass by and say, “Can we have that Greek pork patty you made? Or the Moroccan lamb was so tasty. Or what about the umami beef, the Southwest salmon, the wasabi tuna.”

I had all sorts of different patties. Like I said, they’re just a nice, convenient way if you’re interested in portion control, you want to make sure you’re getting four-ounces of good, clean protein, you want it convenient and cooking it straight from frozen. This is the need my patties met. Before long, the freezer was empty and I just kept producing and producing. I finally took it to my local Whole Foods, and they knew my dad and his restaurant. We’ve been in business for over 50 years. They all knew we’re the burger family, so they were more apt to bring me in and try the patties. They thought, “Okay, this is well-known company burgers for over 40 years, and she’s got an interesting story.”

They brought me to corporate. They said, “Let’s see what you’ve got.” The rest is history. It was a year and a half until I’m on the shelves. They gave me the green light to go, produce, find a co-packer, find a source, find raw materials, find a good package, a good box, a name for your company, a logo, a brand, a lifestyle image. The whole thing. They’re like, “Go to town and come back to us when you’re done.” It did, it took me almost a year to do all that. USDA approvals, vendor sourcing, R and D, food scientists I had to hire to scale my ingredients from kitchen to mass production. There was a lot of little steps of which I knew none of them. I had never done it before.

It was, thank god for your book. I have to tell you, yours and a few others I purchased to put me on the path to, “Okay, now I know what Whole Foods told me to go do, how do I actually execute and do it?” I appreciate the help you offered way at the beginning, too.

Jennifer: Well, thank you. I wanted to say, your experience is that the rest is history and that’s true, but your experience is a little bit different, because for most food entrepreneurs, you wouldn’t typically get a green light from a retailer like a Whole Foods or at least like, “Yeah, we want to see you back,” if you aren’t already actively out there selling your product. That is really unusual.

Angela: I have a feeling a lot of things in my scenario are unusual. As I learnt more and more, the path and the journey different entrepreneurs in the consumer path have traveled on, I realize mine is very atypical. I don’t think most people have the kind of relationships I have with my co-packer, who’s really been brought on as almost a partner. They love what we’re doing, they want to help us, they’re passing on some really good cost benefits to us.

Like you said, Whole Foods … It was an idea in my head, literally, and some Ziploc bags with some frozen patties that I went to them with. But I think what we had going for us were I think two things. One, the freezer section of all the aisles in the grocery store have been a little tired and sleepy for quite a few years. If you look at the clean label, disruptive brand, you’ll see them more in the drink category or the grab and go, or the snack, or the bar, or the yogurt. Different areas there are labels and brands that have come in and have cleaned up that section of the market with clean label, clean ingredients, transparency in the supply chain.

Nobody had done it in the freezer section, and I think they were waiting for someone like us to come in and give them those pillars of not only is this the highest quality animal protein you can source … Grass-fed and finished beef, pastured pork and lamb, free-range chicken and turkey, wild caught seafood. If you turn over that box, all you’ll find is clean labels. You won’t find any additive or vegetable seed oils or preservatives. If I can make this work in my kitchen, there’s a way to scale it. I needed to find out how. How do I scale what these noticeable, flavorful patties are to mass production?

I think that’s why they gave us a, “Let’s see if you can do it. We believe in you, we’ll give you …” All they gave me really was a stack of co-packers and a list of retailers that I can source my meat from. They said, “See what you can do.” When we went back to them, Jennifer, another interesting part of this Whole Foods relationship, was our pricing was not there. We were small, we didn’t benefit from any economies of scale, we were buying very small quantities. We were hit with some big costs up front. I remember you had given me your cost model and as much as I put all of those numbers in there, it still wasn’t panning out to anything that made sense. How are we going to make money with this? Whole Foods actually took a hit in bringing us in.

Jennifer: Oh wow.

Angela: They did not … If I tell you their margins, now that I know what retailers … I thought that was normal. I’m like, “Did we just get an order, and is that right? Is this what they’re gonna make on it?” And then I realized, no. I think they’re doing this to give us a chance, and they did say it to us. “You’ll get on the shelves, do whatever you possibly can to get off the shelves,” meaning turn that product over and you have eight months to give us better pricing.

I’m happy to say that working with our co-packer, we’ve gone back to Whole Foods a few times when we’ve called the meetings and said, “We’ve got great news, we were able to lower our costs, margins are better for you, margins are better for us, retail price is solid.” They gave us that opportunity, too, which again, from experience of other people, I haven’t heard these sort of scenarios. I’m counting my blessings, let’s just say.

Jennifer: Yeah, and you bring up so many interesting points, and I actually want to touch on all of them. To kind of back up for a minute, you talked about your co-packer is almost a partner at this point, and working with them … And especially because you’re a meat-based product, and if you’re crossing state lines, the USDA headache that is involved with that. In everything you did in let’s say that first year, from that initial meeting with Whole Foods until more or less when you launched, what did you do to make sure that you were with the right co-packer who could help you through some of those … Not only the production challenges, but also potentially those USDA and understanding all of those pieces as well?

Angela: That was a pretty painful process, I have to say. I had to find a co-packer, first and foremost, that was gonna stop the production line of 20,000 pounds of beef going through a day, to give my little 200 pound trial to see, “Do I have my production correct? Did I scale correctly?” So that’s a huge thing for a co-packer to have to stop their production line to give you a chance.

I had met with seven different co-packers, and it was important to me to have the co-packer somewhere in California. I did not want to have to travel to Missouri or Kansas every time I had a production run. I went up and down the coast, from San Diego all the way up to Fresno, and even one in San Francisco, to meet with various co-packers and tell them, “Here’s what I have, Whole Foods said yes, they’re gonna do a pallet of each, that was the order that they initially gave me. Can you help me, can you let me try it in your co-packing facility?”

I got a lot of nos, I got a few maybes, and I got one yes, but I was with them for maybe eight or nine months and it was like fitting a square peg into a round hole. All I kept hearing was, “We’ve never done something like this before. We’re willing to give you a chance, but this really isn’t in our wheelhouse. This is gonna be a very difficult project.” I’m like banging my head up against. I ended up calling a co-packer again that had said no to me before, and re-visiting that. I thought, I just gotta keep going back to the drawing board. Surprisingly, once I pitched them on the phone, they said, “You know, we’re really opening up that avenue of bringing new, clean-label, disruptive brands into our mix, so let’s see what you’ve got.” I took that the next week, I said, “Great, a meeting on Wednesday at ten, does that work for you?” You just gotta grab the opportunity.

I went up … This is in Fresno, my co-packer’s in Fresno, and I pitched them on my product, I had a few samples, I showed them what I’m trying to make, and it was important to me, I want the inclusions of the vegetables, I don’t want you guys to blend this thing to become this sausage-like consistency. I really want the user to be able to see, there’s a little mint in here, a little lemon peel, a little garlic. Just more homemade, if you will, because co-packers have the tendency of just pushing out those sausage-like things that are just all blended together.

They loved what I had, and they were actually ironically all of them around the conference table doing the Whole 30. If you know what that is, my product is Whole 30 approved, and that’s to say 30 days of an elimination where you eliminate all sorts of irritants and inflammatory ingredients from the foods you eat. You eat more wholesome, real foods for 30 days. That’s to discover what foods bother you. They were all doing it, so when I told them my product is also Whole 30 approved and paleo certified, they just loved it. They’re like, “This is something we would eat. God, we are looking for something like this. This is great.” I thought, if they think they would eat it on their Whole 30, perhaps the rest of the world will, too.

That’s how that relationship took part. We did a few productions, we had to tweak, there was a second run of production trials, we had to tweak again until we finally got the recipe, which we thought would scale well from 200 pounds to 2000 pounds to then 5000 pounds. I did share with them some of our concerns. We’re a small little brand, we don’t have the funds to go with these prices that we’re getting on meat. How can you guys help? How can you partner with us to really bring this to the consumer? They tagged on our little 2000 pound orders onto the 40,000 pounds they order every couple of months to pass on those cost-savings to us, which was great.

Again, I’ve heard horror stories of co-packers. They rip your idea off, or they’re hard to get a hold of, and you can’t get your time slot in, you can’t get your production. I’ve heard all sorts of things, but I … Knock on wood … Blessing I’ve had these co-packers that are just loving a product and love working with us. It’s been a good all-around win-win.

Jennifer: That’s fantastic to hear. When it comes to working to co-packers, one other thing that I always hear from food entrepreneurs is just the initial, up-front investment in doing those trial runs. Stuff that you won’t even necessarily sell. Again, when you’re talking a meat-based product, I may be incorrect here, but I would think that that would be more expensive than let’s say a cookie business. Can you tell us a little bit about as you were figuring out what your start-up costs, and then how you were going to fund that. Those first initial big costs. If you don’t mind me asking, was it personal savings, was it friends and family? How did you go about financing that?

Angela: It was personal savings, and I’ll answer this, but you had also mentioned in your previous question about USDA. The co-packer has a USDA person on staff, so they were able … We would meet with them, the USDA individual, and they’d come and look over our product and say, “Yes, you’re approved here. You gotta send in your paper work. Dot these i’s and cross these t’s and this is what you have to do.” They really helped us. They were paramount in getting us all the USDA approvals, and knowing what the legality of what we’re making is across the border.

I did fund it myself. This was a personal-funded project that I was able to do. Luckily, the trials that we did, we saved those patties and we’re using them at demos, because we’re distributed only in California. I have a staff of three demo gals, and we have a huge freezer because we own restaurants in Pasadena, and one of them is dedicated to all our patties. We go in there and grab these patties that were our trial. When I said they were off, they still taste amazing, so I felt good about putting them out at the demos. To me, I’m like, “We need to bring down the garlic a little, let’s lessen the salt, let’s up …” They were fine little minor tweaks that were just what I wanted the product to finally be like, and I thought, “Well, we’re not throwing away all these patties, let’s use them at demos, I think it will be fine.”

I also have a family of meat-eaters. Brothers, and those patties, believe me, they wouldn’t throw them to waste. It is an up-front cost that is just sort of a necessary evil, you just have to do it. It’s not like a baking recipe that you can just scale and it’s affordable and it’s flour and nuts and what have you. This was quite expensive, but I think it was just part of our idea. It’s what you have to do, but at least it didn’t go to waste, and we had plenty of places to use it.

Jennifer: What about your packaging? I’ll encourage folks who are listening to go take a look at your website, because your packaging is beautiful. In fact, let me step beyond that and just your brand identity as a whole. Where did all of that come from? Did you work with a creative design team?

Angela: I did. I have to shout out to my brothers who … I’ve got two younger brothers who have taken over Dad’s hamburger restaurant, subsequently opened a barbecue restaurant, and I have a whole hospitality group behind them with now five different restaurants. They encouraged me, and I remember my brother saying this. He’s like, “You won’t regret it.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh, it’s so much money to come up with a website and a brand and a logo. What is this?” He’s like, “Spend it now. Spend it up front, you will not regret it. Five years from now, you’ll look back at that price tag and say it was the best investment I made.”

Here’s the reasons. You’re coming out into the world and you feel like you’ve got something strong. If you’re passionate and you truly believe that you’re gonna make a difference on the shelf, then come out with that voice that speaks to that consumer, and that resonates to the person that’s going to buy your product, but also translates everything you believe in. Having come from a vegetarian eating protocol for 35 years, and now incorporating meat back into my diet, it was important to me to honor the animal. You’ll see my package with the animal space on it. All my packages will have the animal on them.

It was also important to me because I eat more of a paleo template, I do Whole 30, I’ve eliminated a lot of the grains and inflammatory flours and sugars from my diet that I have the plate presented a little more bunless, if you will. At the end of the day, it’s a patty, which most people know as a burger, but I put it on the box sort of the bunless burger with cauliflower and rice, or with zucchini noodles, or topped over a salad. The whole name Tribali and I thought, whenever you change something in your life, you want a teaching, a teacher, and a tribe.

You want your common people that think alike, maybe eat alike, have the same beliefs and values. A tribe is a community of people that are like-minded in your goals. That’s how the name came about, I thought this is a tribe, this is a tribe of people who are cleaning up their plate, that are making healthy choices, and that are seeking higher quality from their animal proteins, and understand the conscious carnivore that understands that [inaudible 00:19:43] meat is not so healthy for you. We need to make a difference through a voice, and that’s how … I put all this in my mind, and I actually wrote out a brand brief myself. This is what I want to convey.

I found an agency … I went in the market, and I looked at all the packaging that was out there, and I thought, “Who do I like the most? Who resonates with me?” I wrote the names down of those companies, and then I came back to my computer and thanks for Google, you can find out what agencies they use and who did their packaging and so forth. I had about five or six that I thought … And they weren’t in the freezer section, they were all over the market.

Jennifer: I was going to ask that.

Angela: Nobody in the freezer section. It’s funny, Jennifer, ’cause if you look in there, I stick out a little bit. That was important to me too. When the agency gave me back ten different iterations of the brand and the look, I took each one, I put it out on a piece of paper, I took each one and I went in the freezer section. I opened that door in Whole Foods, they thought I was crazy, the guys behind the meat counter are like, “What are you doing?” I’m like, “I want to stick my box on the shelf and see what it looks like. Does this resonate? Does this …” It was a piece of paper, really. A lot of them, I’m like, “No, that doesn’t look good. No, that blends in with everything else. No, that doesn’t speak to me.”

Until I came to … I think we had three runner-ups, if you will. Then it was sort of easy, I put those three up and I thought, “Okay, Tribali. It speaks to me, and I hope it speaks to others. It resonates on the shelf. It stands out.” The freezer section, again, is one of the most challenging areas of the market to stand out at. You’ll never be at the front counter, you’ll never be at the … What is it called, at the end of the aisle? The end cap. You’ll never be in these areas. You’ll always be in the freezer, and most likely, more often than not, behind a door.

There’s a lot of obstacles as to how someone’s gonna find you, and not only that, if someone’s opening that freezer door, it’s with a purpose. They are opening, they are grabbing, and they are closing that door. They’re not opening to browse. It’s cold, it’s cumbersome, it’s uncomfortable to hold that door open. You’re not opening and going, “Oh, I wonder what’s new here.” It’s a different shopping experience than the bar aisle, if you will, or the chip aisle, or snack and go.

I had to put myself in the consumer’s shoes and say, “How do I shop in this section of the market, and why would I shop in here? Am I looking for ease of use, convenience, the emergency food when I didn’t have time to cook. How do I get protein on the plate in under ten minutes?” All of these things had to be on my box to speak to that consumer. It’s clean, it’s effortless, it’s quick, it’s healthy, it’s nutrient-dense, it’s pure ingredients, it’s transparent. Then you don’t want to crowd your box too much, so you have to whittle it down to really what’s important and how am I going to convey this.

Thank you. I think we did a good job. I’ve gotten a lot of praise for my packaging and my branding.

Jennifer: The packaging, as you mentioned, the goal was to obviously speak to the consumer and get them to open up that freezer door. What else from … Whole Foods kind of gave you that, “Hey, you’ve got eight months to make sure that this is getting off the shelf and at a good price point, or good margin point for them.” How did you plan ahead of time, before you launched, of what you were going to do to support the product in store?

Angela: I asked them, first and foremost, I said, “What do you have in your marketing toolbox to help us?” They gave me a list, and I’ll kind of show those to you. I also asked other consumers. I had gone to … Not consumers, packaged-goods brands. I had gone to various shows and I made friends with other products that I liked, like-minded products, and I said, “What did you guys do when you got on the shelves? How did you support?” I kind of took both those.

Whole Foods told us, we have a couple of things. Demos work, price reduction works, one week per month or a promo every couple of months. Those work well. But we don’t want to see that your product flies off the shelf during promo and then after promo it’s declining. We want to see that that upped your product and sale, and that that velocity kept stable or kept going up. In other words, you’re getting repeat customers. People will buy things on sale, but the point is, will they re-buy it when they come back?

That was important, and the only thing you could do to support that is make sure that you are spot-on on taste. People will buy anything if they want the first time, whether it’s on sale, there’s a promo, a friend told them about it, or they tried it and liked it. Unless it tastes good, you may not get them coming back to buy it. We did the demos. Whole Foods also has a local producer program, so I applied to that. I met their criteria, and then I gave them pictures of us out on the farm with the ranchers and the cows. They’re featuring us at the Whole So-Pac region above the meat section with the local producer feature with our pictures and the whole program around Tribali. You almost have to ask them, “What have you done for other retailers?”

They also have new item claims that they put on their freezer door, so I made sure that those were available at all the markets. We’re in 54 markets across four states, so I can’t physically get to all of them, but I definitely have their phone numbers and I’ve called each and every meat department and said, “Whole Foods marketing has supplied you with new item claims for our products, local producer tags, as well as putting us on promo. Please make sure these are up, these are featured. Send me a picture of it so I know if it’s done.” I’ve had great experiences. They’re really willing to work with you because you’re showing an interest.

I also had lots of great swag, like t-shirts and hats. Every time we would go do a demo, we’d just give tons of swag to the meat staff, the meat department, the supervisor, and the assistant, and they loved it. They’re like, “Not many vendors do this, it’s so nice of you guys.” Just treating them well, and then when I call back, they remembered us. “Oh right, you came, you did the demo, you care about your product, so we’re gonna care a little bit about you and help you along.”

Asking the market what they can do for you and then doing your part of either asking mentors, other like-minded brands, and combining those two I think has helped us.

Jennifer: Those are some great ideas, thank you. Speaking of retailers, you mentioned to me that you recently were at Expo West. I would love to just hear a little bit about your experiences there, because having walked that show, that is hand-to-hand combat. It’s a busy place.

Angela: Yeah, it is. I kind of felt that I was literally David up against Goliath. Here’s these big meat companies that have been in the freezer section for years, and I’m coming out and trying to squeeze them over so I can fit in there. Again, the freezer section’s so small. We got into some other retailers since Whole Foods like, here in California, Bristol Farms, Gelson’s, we’re going into Target. Once you walk Expo West, you see how many brands there are, and how do you stand out?

Another important thing I did, and you’ve gotta incorporate this into your budget too. It’s another one of those things that I called my brothers and I’m like, “Do I really have to spend this kind of money on this?” And again, “You won’t regret it, it’s part of the business, just do it.” I hired myself a PR agency right before Expo West, and I said, “Guys, I want to make a splash with my brand. Can you help me? Get me on trade, get me in the NEXTY awards, submit my product for as much as we can. Where would we fit in? Get me some exposure.”

Luckily, I had won the project notch pitch slam, because again, you can have other people do things for you, but you’ve got to put yourself and your brand out there as much as you can. I entered the pitch slam, I had won that, and then I entered the Expo West pitch slam too, and my agency was just on top of giving us as much exposure as we possibly could get right before Expo West. I think that helped, too. We won the NEXTY award for the Best New Frozen Food Product. I came in second at the pitch slam.

Getting up there and just talking about your brand, your mission, why you’re putting this product out into the world, what does it mean, why you’re doing it and how you’re doing it, I think is important. People want to hear your story. People want to hear the reason behind, and if it resonates and it makes sense and it tastes good, then you’ve got the trifecta of building your awareness, your trial, and your availability. Getting the product out there to the masses if you have something that’s really good. Expo West was a huge help of putting us on the map.

Another thing I did at Expo West, I went to each and every brand, like I said, that are like-minded and I thought would pair well with Tribali patties, and encouraged them to, “Let’s do something on social media online. Let’s do a give-away.” I introduced myself and surprisingly people had heard of me. I’m like, “Really? You know about us?” But apparently, people start … There’s only a handful of very clean label brands, and they kind of stick together. We’re doing a lot online, and I think that’s another important play to get your brand recognized is really getting it on social media, and having people interact with it, and all that stuff.

Jennifer: That’s great, I love the gumption. In the midst of the show, which is just crazy, making sure that you took the time to go up and introduce yourself and meet those other similar brands, and then also figure out ways that you guys might be able to partner and help one another.

Angela: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennifer: I’m interested in one last question. For other folks out there who are thinking about starting a food business. Other aspiring food entrepreneurs. What would you tell them going into all of this? It’s fun and exciting and crazy, but there’s also a lot of challenges and headaches and sleepless nights. What would you tell them?

Angela: God, I don’t even know where to start, there’s so many lessons that I’ve learned. I think most importantly is just knowing why, like why you’re doing this and is there space … It’s funny I say that, is there space in that category for you to really make a difference and fit in? I say that, but then ten years ago, if you asked me, “Can another bar company fit in the bar aisle?,” I would say absolutely not. So saturated, but yet you see Kind Bar over the past ten years come in and make a big splash and sell and be phenomenal. You have to have some differentiating factor. You can’t just be a me too brand that goes in there and says, “They’ve done it, we’ll just do it a little bit better.”

Really have a reason as to why, and I think the brands that do have a little bit more of a story that’s real that resonates with consumers. Again, it’s about being authentic, because consumers, even I can sniff out the ones that are just me too, or just not that different or they don’t have a reason for being, so to speak. If you have that, and you have a lot, and I mean a lot, of passion, persistence and perseverance, you can make every day like a grind. Wake up, and you just kick the ball down the field just a little bit. That’s really what we’re doing, every single, just a little, a little, a little, and then I look back to how far I’ve come from eight years ago.

I’m pretty proud, and I can’t wait to see where we can be in two years from today. I think this next term will be pretty pivotal to our brand because now we’ve gotten the awareness, we’ve gotten the tribes and folks around here, we’ve gotten some product and put the concept, now it’s just how do we scale it to bring it across and grow in a methodical and strategic way.

Another lesson learned is, as flattering as it is when you have a great brand and a good name and a logo and a story, you’ll get some retailers that want to bring you in. National retailers that say, “Great, let’s just splash you across 500 stores across the U.S.” As exciting and as flattering as it is, it’s really … You have to know what you’re capable of doing. I’ve said no to retailers at this stage, because I’m not there yet. I hope to be able to be running with the national brands one day, but I can’t go from crawling to sprinting in six months. You really have to do it slow, and it’s okay to say, “Let’s revisit this in six months, in a year, when I’ve got a bunch more resources.”

Believe in what you’re doing, but take it slow, and have a reason for being.

Jennifer: I love that, your ability to say no is because you’re staying true to those core values that are driving your business in the first place.

Angela: Right.

Jennifer: Well, Angela, thank you so much, and I’m so excited to watch your business evolve over the next year and five years and ten years. I’m just really excited for you, and for what you’ve created and developed. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your story with us.

Angela: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, and I do thank you, too, for being such an intricate part of my learning experience. Again, I knew nothing when I started, but your guidance and your book and your financial model piece which was so key for us starting and putting all our little costs in and trying to figure out what our costs are going to be, and what our margins should be. It was really instrumental, and I think you for having that.

Jennifer: I’m glad to hear that it was helpful.

Angela: Okay, thanks so much Jennifer.

Jennifer: Thank you.

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